The interview was conducted in July 1987, a
few months after the first release of the Psychological Horoscope
Analysis. While some information given by Alois Treindl refers
to this time in the 80s, most of what he said is still valid
and interesting background information.
Question:
Since March 1987, Astrodienst Zürich has been offering its
own development of horoscope analyses. What was the reason
for this development?
Alois Treindl:
The aim of astrology is to make statements on a person's personality
and problematic issues in life by means of the birth chart.
There are two ways to attain this: either one studies astrology
oneself or one turns to a person who is knowledgeable in this
area. Until recently, Astrodienst was offering its services
mainly to people involved in astrology themselves. There are
many who study astrology as a pastime but also many who work
with astrology, e.g. astrologers and psychologists, doctors
and natural healers for whom astrology serves as an additional
diagnostic means. Apart from these, however, there is a larger
group of people interested in what astrology can tell them.
So far, we couldn't do much for these people apart from sending
them to an astrological consultation or to seminars. In order
to be able to offer something to them, we developed - in co-operation
with a worldwide leading astrologer - the Psychological Horoscope
Analysis by Astro*Intelligence.
Question:
Why did Astrodienst only now develop such a project? The need
for this service must have existed much longer.
A.T.:
Some firms have been offering so-called computer horoscopes
for some time, i.e. computer-made astrological interpretations.
The methods and computer technologies they employ lead to
results which in our eyes are rather unsatisfactory. Astrological
consultations should be held with the same sense of responsibility
as for instance medical diagnoses or psychological consultations
with a marriage counsellor. An astrologer shouldn't come up
with off-the-cuff statements. Before counselling people, a
serious astrologer will generally have interested him- or
herself in astrology and, hopefully also psychology, for years,
but will also have dealt with the question of what counselling
actually means. Astrologers also need a fair amount of life
experience. When setting up a computer programme to make astrological
statements on an individual, one has to ensure that the programme
possesses as many abilities of a human counsellor as possible.
Until recently, this was impossible for technical reasons.
In the last few years however, methods of information technology
have been developed which aim at imitating an expert's ability
with a computer. This area is generally circumscribed as 'Artificial
Intelligence', although a better name would be 'knowledge
based systems', 'knowledge processing' or 'expert systems'.
The problem is to teach a computer knowledge in a certain
field so that it can fulfill an expert's function. Once achieved,
the computer can then offer solutions to specific problems.
Our task therefore was to make astrological interpretations
with the computer by using this new technology.
Question:
What is the difference between Astrodienst's new horoscope
analysis and other available computer interpretations?
A.T.:
I wouldn't want to run the other services down, but I think
one can say that, qualitatively speaking, we are much more
advanced.
Question:
Are the other services based on a cookbook principle?
A.T.:
The term 'cook book principle' doesn't quite convey the difference,
because in the end we, too, work with text components, meaning
that the final printout contains ready-made parts of text.
More important, however, is the inner context of these components
and how they are evaluated within the programme to make up
a complete reading. One could say that, so far, cook book
recipes were being used: take a certain text for Mars in Scorpio,
a certain text for Mars in the Second House, a certain text
for Sun in Pisces, a certain text for Sun in the Sixth House,
take a text for the aspect between Sun and Mars and then string
these parts of text together. No human astrologer would ever
work like this, but this is exactly what computer horoscopes
hitherto did. Our programme, on the other hand, has a complex
mechanism to solve problems. It contains expert methods to
solve problems, and our computer is capable of applying these
abilities. If the comparison weren't so dangerous, I would
rather compare it with a medical or a psychological diagnosis.
In these areas one cannot work with a straightforward linear-additive
method, i.e. a method which looks isolatedly at individual
factors and then strings them together. It needs an expert
to recognize connections and patterns. 'Artificial Intelligence'
allows the computer to 'see' images, to recognize structures
and to find analogies throughout the whole chart. The programme
works with psychological models which it has saved. In that
regard, the programme's method can be compared to the method
of a human expert. It is rather a synthetic than an analytical
method.
Question:
So the programme more or less simulates an astrologer's procedure?
A.T.:
When an astrologer looks at a horoscope, it means more to
him than a mere compilation of various planetary constellations.
Although s/he knows the individual factors that make up the
horoscope, s/he also sees references and topical issues. S/he
recognizes opposites and similar factors which are prominent
in various constellations. Therefore s/he can relate factors
to one another which at first glance don't seem to be connected.
This distinguishes an expert from a layman simply using a
fixed concept.
Question:
How can a computer do this? Doesn't it function by being told,
if this is the case, do that, and if that is the case, do
this?
A.T.:
This is exactly what became possible with the programming
techniques of expert systems or Artificial Intelligence. One
feeds the computer descriptions of such topical issues. In
the computer jargon they are called 'frames'.
Question:
What do these descriptions aim at?
A.T.:
First of all, I have to clarify my view of the human soul
or psyche. It is based on the perspective of Jungian psychology.
We do not just have a single Ego, a conscious will, surrounded
by an environment, but each of us contains a whole lot of
forces, of facets. They are like a whole group of inner figures
representing different roles and personalities, just like
figures in a drama. Each person has something similar to his
or her own individual drama of life. These figures differ
somewhat in every person. Their co-operation and their conflicts
represent the inner conflict of a human being which often
reveals itself in his or her life. These inner figures combine
to make up me and my character. Some of these figures are
conscious. For instance, I am well aware of my rational side
that thinks analytically, because I need it for my job, for
programming. I live out my social side with friends. My 'joie
de vivre' side is revealed when I cook a meal and invite friends
round for dinner. Through these conscious figures I act within
my life. But there are also figures I am not aware of. They
are hidden and emerge only in certain situations such as crises,
and I cannot determine when they surface. For instance, I
might react aggressively to a certain irritation without this
being part of my normal personality. That means there is something
within me which can also be aggressive and destructive. These
various figures and their individual weighting become visible
in a horoscope. The inner figures correspond to certain constellations
and patterns in the horoscope. This is the basis on which astrology
functions. When looking at a horoscope, one recognizes certain
emphases of planetary constellations, zodiacs, positions of
houses etc. An astrologer is able to interpret these constellations
and to comment both on the conscious and the unconscious side
of a person. When these unconscious figures emerge suddenly,
they can create problems in life. But there are also very
positive, creative figures amongst them. Often a person isn't
even aware of this creative potential. S/he was never really
able to develop it because it never got called forth from
the unconscious. So one cannot describe these figures as either
positive or negative. The knowledge base of our programme
contains descriptions of such inner figures and also describes
which astrological combinations are related to such figures.
The knowledge base of the programme also contains a description
of the relation between the individual figures. Some form
proper pairs of contrast - for instance, there is an individualist
who has no illusions as regards the world and mankind, opposed
by the social type. Or there is the conservative, fatherly
type opposed by the youthful spirit, representing the typical
conflict of irresponsible and overly responsible. Then there
is the contrast of the soberly cynic and the romantic type
or archetype. So the knowledge base of the programme contains
descriptions of those conflicts which may arise through the
antagonistic forces in a horoscope. But there are also descriptions
of relations between the figures. The romantic type, for instance,
is related to the youthful, adventurous figure, and in parts
they have similar traits. On the other hand, the individualist
and the traditional patriarch get on somehow; at least they
don't interfere with one another.
Question:
Could one call these inner figures archetypes?
A.T.:
Certainly. The archetypes represent the basic figures of the
human psyche. They are described particularly in mythology.
Question:
So the programme contains an extensive rule engine?
A.T.:
I wouldn't call them sets of rules, although rules do play
a part. It would be more precise to call them sets of patterns.
That is the main thing. When the programme is fed the horoscope
of a certain person for analysis, it goes through the whole
range of archetypical figures and checks in how far the astrological
combinations suggest their actual existence in this particular
case. Actually the programme doesn't go through all types
but makes choices and excludes certain figures from the outset.
But it would be too complicated to discuss in detail how the
programme works. The programme checks whether the described
patterns exist in the individual and in how far they are appropriate.
Generally it finds several such patterns in a horoscope. Then
it has to decide which ones of these patterns are most important
and how they are to be related. In doing that, the programme
pays special attention to the ones that are most strongly
opposed. It is an important concept of the psychology of the
subconscious that inner oppositions will also become an issue
in the external world. Therefore such pairs of opposition
are of vital importance for the interpretation. The programme
also checks relations. If e.g. three figures with similar
traits appear, countered only by one opposite, it is likely
that a character trait from the first group will find expression
in a person. The shadow, however, is generally suppressed;
it is not visible at first sight in the personality of this
individual and often remains unconscious even to the person
concerned. That means the recognized patterns are balanced
against each other. In this way the computer decides on the
issues which are most important for the person whose chart
is being analyzed. These traits are then described. This is
how the Psychological Horoscope Analysis is produced.
Question:
How does the programme determine the psychological type depicted
in the first part of the horoscope, in chapter II?
A.T.:
Chapter II of the analysis deals with what C.G. Jung called
the four psychological types. These four types correspond
to the four elements fire, water, earth, and air. The intuitive
type whose imagination is strongly developed, and the sensual
type mainly guided by sensual perceptions, form a pair. The
second pair is made up of the rational type, the thinker,
and the emotional person whose foremost functions are feeling,
sympathy etc. The programme assesses the distribution of planets
in the various elements and draws conclusions as to the psychological
type. Very often one finds imbalances, meaning that a certain
element is represented only weakly or not at all. This is
called the undifferentiated function. But another function
will be the strongest one. Yet a second function can be just
as strong and therefore must be considered as well. Liz Greene
calls the psychological type the set within which the psychological
drama takes place. This set in which the figures will act
largely determines the atmosphere of events. In a sensualist,
inner figures living more in fantasy, removed and not earth
bound, will have difficulties living out their qualities.
If the mental function is emphasized, inner figures more orientated
towards emotion will not feel at ease. Therefore it follows
from the first part of the analysis which figures will find
it easy or difficult to enact themselves, which ones will
express themselves openly and which ones are more likely to
be pushed into the shadow. This basic determination already
reveals very much. The four basic types also correspond to
the four humours, the melancholic, the choleric, the sanguine
and the phlegmatic, although these old terms are no longer
valid for our modern way of thinking.
Question:
What is the function of the analysis' main part?
A.T.:
As already mentioned, the main part of the analysis, chapter
III., determines astrological patterns corresponding to archetypical
issues and balances them. The computer then decides which
ones are most important and are expressed most strongly. It
so say looks for the main conflicts of the inner psychic life.
Sometimes the programme even finds two or three main issues.
Question:
Can the programme always decide amongst the various issues?
A.T.:
That isn't always easy. An astrologer actually facing the
client could find a clue as to which figure eventually became
predominant in the life of the person concerned by looking
at his or her appearance and what they say. In such a case,
the programme lists the descriptions of the opposing figures
as equally important. It describes both, because we don't
know which figure became predominant in the life or the momentary
phase of life of the person concerned. But one can describe
this pair, thereby offering the reader access to his or her
own self-awareness.
Question:
What is the difference between a psychological consultation
and the lecture of this computer-made analysis?
A.T.:
An astrologer coming from a Jungian background will approach
his task with similar instruments and a similar method as
our programme does. However, he has at his disposal a vital
additional source of information: the client facing him. He
can ask the clients questions, and this is a great advantage
over the computer programme. If he finds that several issues
in the horoscope are of more or less equal importance, he
generally - merely by asking the clients questions - can determine
which one they chose for themselves, with which of the two
sides they identify most. This the computer programme cannot
do. But basically it occurs only rarely that issues are of
equal weight. Normally, one issue prevails. The astrologer
can also focus much more intently on the things the client
approaches him with. The client wants to know something that
he doesn't know about yet. That's why he approaches the astrologer.
Therefore the astrologer can limit himself to these aspects.
Inevitably, the computer text contains much more information.
It doesn't know where the client stands, what s/he knows and
what else s/he would like to know. There are people who are
not very aware of themselves. They know only very little about
their own psyches. Other people know quite a lot already;
perhaps they underwent several crises and found themselves
in psychologically difficult situations. In a personal consultation,
the focus is much stronger. That is why our text is so detailed;
in a normal book, it would take up 40 to 50 pages, and one
needs several hours to read it thoroughly.
Question:
Can this computer text replace an astrological consultation?
A.T.:
One must consider what actually takes place in an astrological
consultation. It is not a situation in which mere knowledge
is transmitted. Two people sit in the same room. The sympathy
with which the astrologer considers the problems laid out
to him by the client is of importance. A care machine cannot
replace a nurse, and likewise, a human, sympathetic astrologer
cannot be replaced by a computer.
Question:
You mean, the astrologer has also a therapeutic function which
the computer cannot fulfill?
A.T.:
The astrologer is a fellow being, a sympathetic person whose
task is helping others. Not every astrologer sees himself
as a therapist, and not every client visiting an astrologer
regards himself as consulting a therapist. The astrologer
is a sensitive, counselling fellow being, a helper. This human
function cannot be fulfilled by the computer, a machine. On
the other hand books, e.g. psychological books on marriage
crises etc. written by sympathetic authors can help us. Such
books convey many human qualities, because behind them there
is a sympathetic author writing from his own life experience,
his expert knowledge and his experience in dealing with such
problems. A book of this kind not only conveys knowledge but
also enables the reader to find himself emotionally in it,
to find himself in other people's problems described in the
book. Reading a book can initiate important emotional processes.
The same considerations apply to the Psychological Horoscope
Analysis. It is not just cold paper printed by a cold computer.
The author introduces her emotional intelligence, her sympathetic
abilities into the text which is then printed out by the computer.
After all, the texts weren't written by the computer itself.
They were created by an extremely experienced psychotherapist
and astrologer who wrote a number of psychologically astrological
books that are internationally known. Through her text, many
human qualities are conveyed in the analysis. As opposed to
a book, however, these texts were selected specifically for
the reader. When reading a book, you find certain paragraphs
which touch you especially, which resound in you. In a psychological
volume of some 500 pages, this will be only very few pages.
This is where the Psychological Horoscope Analysis differs.
As the texts were selected specifically for the reader by
means of the above-mentioned process, he will find practically
only such pieces of text which mean something to him and which
tell him something personally. In this sense, the Psychological
Horoscope Analysis was not made by a computer. Rather, we
inserted parts of an astrologer's abilities into a computer
model. Statements and texts written by an experienced astrologer
were stored in the computer and are reproduced individually.
Question:
So the author of the texts and of the astrological knowledge
is a key figure in the realization of the Psychological Horoscope
Analysis?
A.T.:
The realization of a project such as the Psychological Horoscope
Analysis requires two things: on the one hand the expert with
the specific knowledge, responsible for the text, and on the
other hand the information specialist, the so-called knowledge
engineer. His job is to structure the knowledge of the expert
and to give it a shape which the computer can understand.
Only in this process between expert and computer specialist
can an expert system come into existence. Both sides are necessary.
Question:
Who is Liz Greene?
A.T.:
Liz Greene is an internationally leading astrologer and astrological
author. She is one of the main figures in modern psychological
astrology and modern psychology of the subconscious. Dr. Greene
is a psychologist and a trained Jungian psychoanalyst in London.
She works both as a psychoanalyst and an astrologer. Her astrological
activities include consultations and the writing of astrological
books, but she also holds seminars in astrology on a regular
basis and heads a school for psychological astrology. Her
books have been translated into some ten languages. Apart
from books on astrology, she also wrote two historical novels
and children's books. With her ability to write and her widely
developed psychological background she became the one person
to unite astrology and Jungian psychology. Not that they ever
were divided: C.G. Jung had always been interested in astrology
and did horoscopes for many of his patients. His daughter
then had to actually draw them. Ms Gret Baumann-Jung, incidentally,
is one of the leading Zürich astrologers. But only Liz Greene
made this area accessible to the larger, psychologically interested
public. This is also due to her fluent style of writing; her
books are very lively and make for fascinating reading. Her
aim has always been to transport astrology back into psychology.
In former times, astrology was an all-encompassing system
of thought. It was connected with all other sciences, representing
so say the earliest psychology. In former times there was
no specific branch of science that dealt with the human psyche.
Freud's modern analytical psychology developed for the greatest
part quite rationally. It stems from a different source. It
was formed by a rational, nearly mechanistic image of man.
In C.G. Jung's psychology, the deeper, submerged sides of
the psyche were expressed and came to the surface quite legitimately.
Liz Greene sees her task in tracing these submerged areas
by astrological means, thereby making astrology accessible
and acceptable for modern psychology. She has a solid base
in both areas and is therefore able to bring them together.
Question:
Can these analyses also be misused? Could they even be harmful
for certain people?
A.T.:
Paracelsus already said that every medicine is also poisonous.
It all depends on the dose. The same applies to astrological
material. The analysis presents a large amount of psychological
material. The text itself contains no astrology as far as
planets, houses or zodiacs are concerned. The text deals with
psychological issues and problems. Psychological material
can indeed be harmful. It happens to every young person interesting
him- or herself in psychology: you buy a book on inferiority
complexes, you read it and are aghast to find that you suffer
from the self-same complexes. One goes through a phase in
which one finds within oneself all those dark sides described
in a psychology book. Such a book can wreak havoc in somebody
who is unstable. But in the hands of somebody seriously interested
in the search for himself it can be of great value. In earlier
times, many books were proscribed by the church because they
were considered to be harmful to the general public and one
didn't credit the normal people with the ability to cope with
them. That was for instance the case with books on sexuality.
Damage and harmfulness are therefore relative terms. Everything
dealing with problems and conflicts in life can be useful
und helpful, mainly because becoming aware of problems is
always a better choice than suppressing them. So we should
rather enquire about the usefulness. Nonetheless, if one discloses
to a person who is on the brink that s/he also has a father
complex, s/he might become deeply depressed. Insofar, every
psychological text, even a novel describing a certain problem,
can be just as dangerous or as useful. It can induce a crisis.
But the question remains whether a crisis in itself is harmful.
In itself, it is useful because it denotes a change. The Psychological
Horoscope Analysis contains the potential to induce crises.
However, there is no difference between this and anything
else which functions as an impulse to the psyche. The authors
are very much aware of the responsibility in connection with
such a product. We do not know for certain who will actually
receive the analysis. Mostly it will be people interested
in psychology and astrology who want to know more about themselves.
We state clearly in the information leaflet that the analysis
will deal with the psychological issues of each individual.
We don't send the analysis anonymously to somebody who never
asked for it. We surmise that everybody ordering an analysis
from us is aware of what they are ordering, what is awaiting
them. The texts are developed with a great sense of responsibility.
They are not intended to tell everybody they are a mass of
complexes. The underlying idea is that many things submerged
in the individual - treasures buried in the psyche or the
unconscious - are worth bringing to the surface. Once they
have surfaced, they can heighten a person's creativity and
joy of life, for integrating the various submerged parts of
a whole personality means raising the quality of life. When
a person goes through a process of integration, a richer whole,
a more mature personality emerges. These unconscious creative
sides are stated expressively in the analysis. Not that the
darker sides are glossed over - but every darker side also
has a creative aspect. Dealing with aggressiveness for example
doesn't make a person evil but makes him or her whole. Nonetheless,
as I already said, anything can induce a crisis. This is the
reason why we enclose a questionnaire with every analysis,
offering people the opportunity to react. We think this is
of vital importance. The reader doesn't just get something
thrown at him. We are prepared to consider each reader individually,
to an extent which depends on each case. We are very much
interested in getting feedback from the readers. This also
offers them the opportunity to send out an 'SOS' and to turn
to us. If we receive such a signal of confusion and bewilderment,
we don't leave it at that. We assess the feedback and deal
with it accordingly.
Question:
The analysis is intended for adults. Can an analysis be made
for children?
A.T.:
The Psychological Horoscope Analysis deals with the problems
of adult life. It is intended as lecture for the person described
in the text. The analysis deals very much with the unconscious
side of the psyche. Therefore it's not particularly useful
to have an analysis done on somebody else. Of course it can
be interesting to find out what it reveals about one's boss.
But that is not the aim. The analysis was written for the
adult who would like to face himself. If the analysis is not
to expand into a vacuum, life must have been lived, because
otherwise there are no problems of life to be dealt with.
To a child of ten, the analysis would mean as little as would
a book on marriage counselling. That's the reason for imposing
an age limit of 14 years. It is always difficult to draw precise
lines. We believe that people reaching maturity should have
access to the analysis. If we made the analysis only for people
over 20, we would be disregarding all those bright seventeen-
or fifteen-year-olds interested in psychology. But we are
aware of the fact that setting up age limits is always arbitrary.
Question:
What did it take to develop the product as it is now?
A.T.:
It required two experts: the specialist who provided the expert
knowledge and wrote the texts which eventually were selected.
On the other hand it needed a computer specialist, the knowledge
engineer, to structure this expert knowledge and transform
it into a computer programme. Knowledge processing is a new
field. Methods for setting up expert systems can't be bought
off the shelf. It is not a widespread computer technology
which every programmer knows about. One can't just buy a knowledge
processing system instead of a text processing system. Expert
systems are an area which is just finding its way from the
universities into practice. A user wanting to work with knowledge
processing systems has to create a great many software and
programming tools himself. S/he could buy extremely specialised
computers built only for Artificial Intelligence, but at a
price. I have been dealing with the area of Artificial Intelligence
for four years now and have acquired knowledge in this field.
I learnt the relevant programming languages: at first Lisp,
at Zürich University, then the language Prolog at the ETH.
We eventually decided to base our project of astrological
expert system on the language Prolog. This is a very modern
programming language which was created specifically to combine
logically rules, statements and logical thinking. Prolog is
the language which a few years ago the Japanese decided on
for their well-known Fifth Generation Computer Project. This
is a combined project of the Japanese computer industry. Their
aim is to promote a general breakthrough of Artificial Intelligence.
It took roughly four years to create the basic programming
techniques and the necessary software tools and to shape the
programme. An important step was to re-write the programming
language Prolog for the computers at our disposal. We had
to develop a special language compiler for our Hewlett-Packard
computer. We were in close contact with the ETH Zürich where
a Prolog compiler was being developed for the computers at
the ETH. I contacted these people and, in co-operation with
them, ported and developed the language to adapt it to our
computers. This Prolog interpreter became a software parcel
for HP computers and is now on sale. It is so say a side product
of our actual development. From 1983 to late 1985, we worked
on these preliminary tasks: acquiring the technical know-how
and creating the software tools. The time from late 1985 to
early 1987 was spent on the actual realization of the project:
setting up the basic knowledge, the programme and the texts
for the production of Psychological Horoscope Analysis.
Question:
Are you a computer specialist, an astrologer. or both?
A.T.:
In the main part I was of course the computer specialist.
Question:
What is your educational background?
A.T.:
Originally, I studied physics. After graduating, I took my
doctor's degree at the ETH Zürich in experimental solid state
physics. That was in 1981. But all along I was strongly interested
in computers. For me, physics was often secondary to the problems
and the use of computers. But then I also was interested in
psychology. There was always a certain tension between the
psychological interest in people and the rational, scientific
interest in physics and computers. There always were two sides
in me that did not fit together. In 1979, I encountered astrology.
That was a very intensive experience. Astrology has more or
less two sides; it is a mixture of a symbolic psychological
associative system which moves within the field of the irrational,
of that which cannot be grasped logically and causally. At
the same time, astrology relies on the precisely calculated
orbit of planets which encompass in their astrological system
also the Sun and the Moon; therefore, astrology has a mathematically
correct side as well. In astrology, both these sides are necessary.
An astrologer needs a precisely calculated chart in order
to interpret it psychologically. Perhaps that is why I was
fascinated by astrology from the very beginning. I then started
to read books on astrology, to attend seminars. I transferred
the calculation of horoscopes onto the computers, tools I
was very well acquainted with, and from these playful beginnings,
Astrodienst developed. That was quite early, in 1980. In those
days I did that beside my work in the laboratory at the ETH.
In the evenings, I used to develop the programme for drawing
planets and their orbits. After taking my doctor's degree
in 1981, I worked for Astrodienst Zürich, the astrological
calculation service, and made this my main task. This service
was very well received. Through mastering the modern, advanced
methods of programming, I helped to raise the qualitative
standard of astrological calculations, of graphical denotation
etc. So I have been dealing with astrology for many years,
but mainly with the technical aspects, the calculation of
it. I always knew that the mere calculation would not satisfy
me. I wanted to bring these worlds closer together. I wanted
to join the world of the computer with this irrational psychological
side which is so difficult to structure. I constantly educated
myself further in information technology and very soon guessed
that, by means of the new methods of Artificial Intelligence,
one might succeed in tackling the Psychological Horoscope
Analysis with computers in a responsible way - not just to
paste together certain astrological text units with a cook
book but to imitate the model of how an astrologer looks at
a horoscope. In the following, I got more and more involved
with this new field and I learnt about the methods of Artificial
Intelligence, until it was time to start on a concrete project.
That was, as already mentioned, in 1985. While working with
Liz Greene, implementing her astrological knowledge on the
computer, I intensified my involvement with astrological interpretation
and learnt much more about astrology. I am not only a technician
disinterestedly designing a programme. Not at all. In the
process of transferring the knowledge of a leading astrologer
to a computer, I developed into being an astrologer. Today,
I am both an astrologer and a computer specialist. Recently,
I began to do astrological consultations myself. A computer
programme is always limited, whereas a personal consultation
can impart something important for the person concerned. I
learn a lot from my personal clients. But of course, a consultation
costs much more than a computer analysis.
Question:
Are you happy with the product as it is on offer now?
A.T.:
Yes, I am very happy. And I am a very sceptical and self-critical
person. I could explain that to you from my horoscope. Sometimes
I might even be too self-critical. I hesitate for a long time
before I find something good enough to actually offer it.
And so, during the development of the programme, I received
a lot of feedback from friends and through psychoanalytical
work. Before introducing it, the programme was tested intensely.
Already then we received a good deal of positive reaction.
We didn't write the basic knowledge just like that but tested
it time and again. We constantly ran through a great number
of people we know very well and checked how well the models
worked. We wanted to know whether the programme really found
the most important issues within these persons or not. So
we've always been involved in a process of learning, and still
do so. I am happy, I am even surprised with what we have achieved.
Of course we could continue working for another three years
and make it even more detailed. But I believe that the current
programme is very good and it would be a pity not to make
it available for those interested in it. And then one also
has to consider the costs: the development is very expensive
and we have to appear on the market at one point.
Question:
Do you plan to develop the programme further or to add similar
analyses?
A.T.:
Both. We don't see this programme at all as definite. The
methods it entails are very good, they work, and in that sense
they will remain. But the contents will become more detailed.
Feedback from our clients enables us to find out where the
programme grasps the least, where it may still be somewhat
uneven, where it doesn't express itself clearly enough or
where the presented material is met with incomprehension.
Apart from developing the existing programme further there
are of course other important issues in astrological counselling,
for instance including the quality of time. For that, a birth
chart is not enough because it is fixed. Moving through time,
we constantly encounter certain phases in which certain issues
emerge and are particularly acute. Others we leave behind,
and that is how change takes place. In astrology there are
several methods to find out which issues are more acute at
present or will be in the near future. Introducing the dimension
of time into the astrological analysis is an addition we are
thinking about. The other issue is relationships, partner
relationships. This is one of the main issues in psychological
and astrological consultations: crises and conflicts in relationships
or the lack of relationships. This is an area where astrology
can achieve a lot. Astrology is able not only to look at a
person but to juxtapose two people and see how the issue relationship
reveals itself in the two individual horoscopes and which
interactions exist. This issue is mentioned in the Psychological
Horoscope Analysis, but it is not the main question and the
analysis does not look at both partners.
Question:
Does the Horoscope Analysis also contain predictions?
A.T.:
It certainly doesn't contain predictions in the vulgar sense
of 'Watch financial matters this month!' We do not deal with
astrology on this level at all. However, the basic belief
is that one's character is one's fate. That means that whatever
exists within me as a conflict will be expressed again and
again in my life. Especially things that I have suppressed
will confront me from the outside. This is connected with
mechanisms of projection etc. There is something like wisdom
of fate and of life and it seems to be a lifelong task to
face the tasks and conflicts one was given at birth. If I
don't look inside myself and face these conflicts, I will
encounter them externally. In this sense a description of
a character, of something within me, also points towards things
that can confront me externally. The more unaware somebody
is, the less he has faced himself, the more likely it is that
life will confront him quite brutally from the outside. Each
description of the issues of an individual's life is therefore
in a way also a prediction and at the same time a non-prediction,
because by consciously dealing with the conflict one can avoid
having to be made aware of this conflict externally. There
is a kind of 'dewitchment' which occurs when one faces one's
inner conflicts and complexes. Thereby the process of becoming
aware turns into a liberation, a redemption from fate. That
may sound a bit presumptuous, but it's exactly what psychoanalysis
does: introspection redeems one from a fate which otherwise
appears externally or internally through one's body. This
is the secret of psychosomatics. Therefore one can't separate
prediction from the analysis of a character. But predictions
in a narrower sense of the word, of what will happen when
and how - that we don't do. And one can't do it, exactly because
consciously dealing with an issue can invalidate fate and
make it unnecessary for something to happen.
Question:
I noticed that the analysis contains a lot on the parents,
that it even risks making statements on the parents' relationship.
How is that possible?
A.T.:
Those are actually two questions. One is: How is it possible?
And the other: Why do we do that? One has to ask what parents
mean psychologically. The parents are not only external people
with whom you live as a child, who cook food for you and educate
you, but they play a nearly overdimensional role in psychology,
especially in the psychology of the subconscious. The parents
are a child's very first experience with the male and female
aspects. One's mother is the first woman one gets to know.
One's father, or the man who fulfills the role of a child's
male career, is the archetypical male who encounters the child.
In Jungian psychology one talks of Animus and Anima, the inner
male and female sides of each individual. In a man, the Animus
side may be more on a conscious, the Anima side more on an
unconscious level, and vice versa in a woman, although it
is not always this obvious. But the parents' figures always
relate to these inner sides. They, so to say, play the part of
model character for my inner female or male side. That means,
my inner female side is connected with what my mother is like.
My inner male side is connected with what my father is like.
Not necessarily what my father is like externally; he also
has an unconscious side. My mother, too, has an unconscious
side which might not be fully expressed in her life but which
a child, unconsciously, is very much aware of. As the horoscope
depicts my main psychic parts, it also depicts Animus and
Anima. It depicts my male and female archetypes, which of course
have a lot to do with parental figures who were, after all,
the first models. Observations in practical astrology have
revealed that the parents can be traced in their child's horoscope.
Not necessarily their exterior self; in reality, one parent
might very well have been absent, but the child's horoscope
contains a father figure none the less, regardless whether
it is a woman's or a man's horoscope. From a horoscope one
can learn a great deal about parental figures and how they
were reflected in the child's psyche, and that is of great
importance to me. After all, the parents were the first role
model of a relationship. The experience I had with my parents
moulds my ability to strike up relationships, my ability to
handle conflicts. To face one's parents as represented in
the horoscope gives one access to a vital level of problems
and conflicts within oneself.
Question:
Which criteria does the programme employ to make statements
on relationships?
A.T.:
On the one hand, we employ traditional astrological interpretations
such as Seventh House, position of Venus etc., on the other
hand, based on a psychological concept, we believe that a
person often would like to see his or her unconscious sides
reflected in their partners. You could call it projection.
The issue of relationships is therefore closely connected
to the main part of the analysis which describes the main
figures of a character.
Question:
Do you strive to fully grasp the person described by the programme?
A.T.:
We strive to depict the issues in the life of the described
person and thereby to encourage them to face themselves. The
more consciously people deal with their problems, the more
they elude the description of the programme. On the other
hand, it generally is exactly these people who realize that
the description addresses the main aspects of their personality.
We don't claim to fully grasp a person in our programme. That
would be presumptuous and arrogant. Luckily, even a computer
can go wrong.
Question:
What is the point of this Psychological Horoscope Analysis?
A.T.:
We believe that the analysis will help the reader to become
more aware of the topical issues in his or her life and thereby
to learn to cope with them more consciously. This can be a
real help in life. Consciousness means redemption from one's
fate.
