P.I.:
Your new report, "Career and Vocation", is about to be launched. What can your
readers expect?
Liz Greene:
A great many people have no idea what direction to go in because
they don't understand themselves. Even when they train,
they base their decisions on whether there's a market need.
They ask questions like, "Is there a job opening here?" or "Can
I make any money if I do this job?" This isn't the way
to find any real satisfaction in what you do. You've got
to move from the inside out. 
Before you begin the issue
of training or choosing a university programme, you have
to know something about who you are and what kinds of things
you love; what you value and what your skills are; what
you're good at and what you're not good at. Once you have
a pretty good picture of these things, you can make a more
intelligent choice about what sort of direction to go in.
Vocation is not about finding a job that makes money, it's
about feeling that you're living a useful life by doing
something that you love. You can then develop your aptitudes
in service of that, rather than choosing a job simply to
pay for the rent or the weekly groceries. One has to move
from the inside out, rather than from the outside in. The
report is meant to give insights on that level. One needs
to foster more of a psychological attitude to work, rather
than looking at it as a purely external thing.
P.I.:
Do you give the reader any advice on what sort of a job to
look for?
Liz Greene:
Not in a specific sense. The programme is not going to tell
anyone what particular job is exactly right. A horoscope
cannot be that specific. It's not going to spare one the
actual labour of thinking for oneself. It gives general
guidelines. For example, someone may have an aptitude for
working with people - they may be sensitive, tactful, and
deeply concerned with people's welfare. That's a vocation.
There are many jobs that could come under the general umbrella
of "the Carer": a therapist, a counsellor, a teacher, a
certain kind of lawyer, a personnel director. If the general
umbrella makes sense, the specific job is more likely to
fall in place.
K.B.:
Are there certain planets and constellations that play an important
role in these interpretations?
Liz Greene:
To some extent, yes. But I think vocation really involves the
whole chart. Traditionally, astrologers look at the 10th or
6th houses, or the sign at the MC. That doesn't really work.
Vocation is about the whole person, and finding something that
can satisfy as many parts of that whole person as possible.
In part of the programme, I focus quite strongly on the Sun,
because the Sun has a lot to do with the individual's feeling
of being someone special and having a special destiny or purpose
in life. But that's only one part of it. The whole chart has
to be considered.
P.I.:
What sort of issues are addressed?
Liz Greene:
The first part of the programme is about the overall way
the individual looks at life - the best-adapted mode
of perception and the basic strengths of the temperament.
It goes into whether the person is more mentally oriented
or more tactile, whether they are highly imaginative
or more inclined to interact with the world on a feeling
level. It's a general overview, and it immediately becomes
clear that certain kinds of work won't be suitable for
certain temperaments. For example, if someone has a very
lively mind and a lot of intellectual curiosity, and
they have a job where they fill envelopes or stuff boxes
all day, they are going to end up hating every minute
of it.
The second part is more detailed, and
goes into specific aptitudes and skills. It's based on
the whole chart, although particular factors may be highlighted.
There's an emphasis on "What are you good at?" and "What
kind of working environment will be most pleasing to you?" Some
people need to work in a team, some do well in more institutionalised
structures, some prefer working on their own. The report
goes into personal issues like this.
The next part deals with limitations and conflicts that one
might need to be aware of. These are not necessarily flaws
or things people "do wrong". But we all have limits. There
are certain innate areas of difficulty, and there's not a
lot of point in trying to make yourself be something you're
not. Some limitations can be very creative, if you know what
they are. You can work with them and turn them into an advantage.
The final part has three sections. There's
a section dealing with how the individual works with others;
it describes their particular issues in work relationships,
if there are any special issues. Someone might not really
enjoy the company of others, or they may be too controlling
toward others. Then there's a section which deals with
particular fears and anxieties with regard to achievement
and success, if there are any. This section is concerned
with where the deepest insecurities might lie and what
they might be about.
Finally, there's a section dealing with what success really
means to that individual. People measure success very differently.
For some people, its material - they feel successful because
they have a beautiful home or a lot of money in the bank.
To other people, this doesn't matter at all, as long as they
feel useful, or they've helped others, or they've been loyal
to an artistic vision. The final section is about the person's
deepest values, which show what they need to do in order
to feel they have really made the best of their life.
P.I.:
Can someone's vocation change as he or she grows older?
Liz Greene:
In a superficial sense, yes. People change direction all
the time. Some take a very long time finding a direction.
So, on the surface, yes, people change. But the core
of the person doesn't really change. Usually, when somebody
goes through a lot of different working situations, they're
either trying to find something which really suits them,
or they're going through different external expressions
which all come from the same core. Someone might start
off as a therapist and then decide they're going to train
as a doctor, and then give that up and become an astrologer
or a healer, but you'll see the same inner thread running
through all these external forms. They have the same
core. There is an unchanging essence in all of us, which
is what the birth chart portrays. A sense of vocation
develops over the course of a lifetime. With many people
it develops very slowly; they may not really feel they've
found their vocation until they reach the middle part
of life, or sometimes even the latter part. And they're
constantly looking for it and trying different things.
The core of the person from which a sense of vocation
arises has something that remains constant. The closer
you get to expressing this core, the more fulfilled you
will be in your work.
P.I.:
So it's really the same issue on different levels?
Liz Greene:
Yes, exactly. The deepest purpose of this kind of astrological
work is to get to the core, rather than being preoccupied
by the external "try-ons" that people go through. The
individual's life is always characteristic of the individual
- there's nothing in it that's random. When people make
choices, such as moving from one job to another, it may
look as though there's no connection. But there is, and
finding this connection will show us what this person
is really looking for. What is the search for? What are
they really striving towards? The closer one can get
to that, the more likely one is to choose a work vehicle
that reflects the whole individual as much as possible.
No external vehicle can entirely mirror the inside of
the person, but if it is sufficiently "right", then one
can say, "Yes, this is what I'm meant to be doing, this
is rewarding, this is satisfying." Even if there are
conflicts, there is a sense being in the right place
and of loving what one does. It has to come from the
heart, and that doesn't change. The things that we truly
love don't change.
P.I.:
Would you advise the use of the horoscope in a professional
context, by businesses or employers?
Liz Greene:
I think it can be very valuable if it is used wisely and
without personal prejudice. There needs to be some sophistication
on the part of whoever is doing the employing. They shouldn't
be too rigid in their judgement. Then a horoscope can
be enormously helpful. The horoscope can't say, "This
person will perform their work well", because all sorts
of things can happen, and people don't always use their
full potential. The individual might be happy for a while
and then get into conflict with someone else in the office,
or decide to go and have a baby. If you're looking for
an employee who is comfortable accepting orders and is
able to produce routine work in a conscientious way,
you need to find someone whose temperament is suited
to that kind of position. There are certain temperaments
that will have difficulty fitting into this kind of work
structure. And if you hire someone who doesn't fit, they
will always be waiting for the chance to have something
more, and if they can't have something more, they'll
leave. Knowing things like that can be very valuable
for the employer, and certainly, a horoscope can indicate
this. It's not a judgement on whether the person is a
good or bad worker, or a good or bad person. They simply
may have strengths in an area that doesn't fit the job
requirements. On the other hand, the person may be very
good at exactly the sort of position you want to fill.
In this sense, I think the analysis can be a very valuable
tool for employers, as long as it is not used judgementally
or to predict the unpredictable.
K.B.:
How can people find a vocation in our times, when job-requirements are changing
so quickly and a lot of business is conceived on a short-term basis?
Liz Greene:
I've tried to address that issue in the way in which the
programme is framed. That's why it's not possible to
be specific and say that someone should work for a certain
company, or that they should do a particular type of
job. The technology may move on so quickly that a particular
job may not exist in a couple of years. It's the core
of the individual that the programme addresses.
The challenge is to understand what one loves, because even
though external structures will change in the job market,
the spirit that animates an individual's vocation will remain.
Of course it's a nuisance if you suddenly find that the company
you work for is going down. But if you know who you are and
what you have to offer, you can find something else that
resonates in the same way. If you have to learn new skills,
that's all right, because the motive is there to learn them.
K.B.:
So it's really always about the core ...
Liz Greene:
Yes. I think that's what vocation is all about. This is why
so many people are miserable in their jobs - it never
occurs to them that a person's work has to reflect the
person. If you love ritual, rhythm, and routine, you
can enjoy laying bricks, which can be a true art form
and a beautiful thing for a craftsman. But equally, if
bricks suddenly disappeared from the list of usable building
materials, you could still bring that love of making
things in rhythmical patterns to any material you're
working with. We look too much at the external world
when we start thinking about what we want to do with
our lives. We ask, "How can I be successful? Where will
I make the most money? What do my parents want me to
do? What kind of job would be the most respectable and
earn me a place in the community?" We keep looking outside,
rather than finding out who we are, what we want to contribute
to the world, and what we love and value.
K.B.:
So many people are swamped by constant input, floods of information,
demands for new skills, new technologies, cultural uprootedness.
How can they cope?
Liz Greene:
When people feel swamped by chaos, it's often because there's
no sense of a core. They have no sense of a centre, and
so everything hits them from the outside and they fragment.
They don't know what to listen to. Where is the truth?
The cultural shifts, the bombardment of information,
the technological changes, the current lack of security
in work - there is tremendous instability in the world
at the moment. The only way to cope with all this flux
is to have something inside that is very solid, where
you know what you are, what you're good at, and what
you love doing. Once you've got that, you can make the
adaptations that are required. You might not like all
of them, but nobody promised that life would be fair.
It all depends on whether or not you can make the necessary
adaptations based on a solid sense of self. A person
can always learn new skills - you can learn how to use
a computer, you can learn another language, you can learn
new artistic techniques if you apply yourself. But you
can't learn to be someone else.
This interview took place in autumn 2000 with Karin Baasch and Peter Isler.
