I don’t see it as you do that we project this savage, eat-or-be-eaten intelligence onto Pluto. I think with the discovery of Pluto, as a species we became more aware of that reality which has always been there in us. It is actually an acceptance of that truth not denial. Projection occurs when you dissociate from Pluto when you don’t honor this god and the inevitable, inexorable evolutionary force that feels so threatening to us as individuals. If we allow no room for Pluto consciousness in our lives it does not simply go away. It appears outside you and you experience it as others, possibly some very savagely violent, dark others. Or it will rise up from your unconsciousness and possess you. You may become obsessed. I would rather remain aware of Pluto.

In the myths, if you do not honor a god you become a victim of their anger. To allow the profound necessities of Pluto to remain totally unconscious is a dishonoring of that psychological reality. All of the tragedy in Homer, Sophocles, Euripides and the other ancient storytellers is a direct result of forgetting or refusing to honor one of the gods. It is hubris to believe they can be denied. In the same way, if you refuse to honor some psychological reality it will become unconscious for you but then it will have an enormous potential to screw up your life. Having been violated by your Mother when you were 3, 4 and 5 does not simply go away because you refuse to acknowledge it. If you ignore Pluto and insist on innocence like Persephone, the myths inform you about the inevitable fate which will befall you.

Por eso pienso que es momento de quitarnos las telas de arañas mentales y sobre todo emocionales (mal que le pese a nuestros egos de astrólogos donde casi teniamos un universo hecho a nuestra medida y ahora estos descubrimientos nos colocan en una encrucijada donde vamos a ver quien tiene,realmente, una actitud cientifica como para no asustarse y abrir su mente en aras de una mayor investigación y enriquecimiento de esta querida disciplina.

Para eso propongo que tengamos en cuenta la posibilidad de integrar nuevos puntos de vista a la hora de analizar las cartas y ver los mapas.
Por ejemplo si tomamos en cuenta los planetas que conocemos e incluimos en las cartas hoy a saber.
Sol, Luna, Mercurio, Venus, Marte, Júpiter, Saturno, Urano, Neptuno y el controversial Plutón... tenemos como ya sabemos diez cuerpos .
Pero si tomamos a Plutón con su innegable poder en la carta no deberíamos comenzar a integrar a los nuevos?:

Quaoar :la fuerza creadora y ordenadora universal, un principio demasiado profundo, rico y necesario como para que elegirle, según viejas teorìas de cómo deberìa llamarse, nombre griego o romano...

Sedna :la diosa inuit de las profundidades y del relacionamiento con las especies submarinas y de la cual dependìa la vida de los humanos según el vinculo de estos con su medio ambiente...(un tema totalmente vigente y necesario).

Orcus: tèrmino que se referìa a el aspecto infernal del hades y que se relaciona con aquellos aspectos nuestros que pueden hacer nuestra vida un calvario si no tratamos de encararlos o transformar el orco en un campo Elìseo.

Varuna: Dios primigenio de la mitología hindù, dios que en un momento llegò a regir sobre los tres aspectos que representan los hasta hoy llamados planetas transpersonales
Deidad por lo tanto asociada al cielo, a la tierra y a el mar (quizàs este señor nos hable de cómo integrar a Urano, Neptuno y Plutón...si no queremos ser un fantasma habitante de las profundidades (de nuestro inconsciente)

2003 UB313o “Xena”: al principio cuando me enterè de que habìan denominado a un planeta con el nombre de una serie de Tvamericana, me molestè pero luego abrì mi mente y me recordè “los planetas se autodenominan...” asì que en lugar de emitir juicios desde el prejuicio me tomè la molestia de ver a Xena y saber sobre su historia y me quede impactado...
Para los que no conozcan la historia Xena era la hija de un rey que fue masacrado cuando ella era niña por una banda de criminales bandoleros. Cuando crece decide actuar de la misma forma que los asesinos de su padre...y se transforma por lo tanto en lo mismo que odiaba...pero luego de su encuentro con Hèrcules, este le enseña el valor del heroísmo y la nobleza y Xena renuncia a su vida de asesina y comienza (por accidente) a utilizar su experiencia de guerrera a favor de los mas débiles...
Andando el tiempo Xena queda embarazada y tiene una hija. Esta hija es perseguida por los dioses (nuestros arquetipos síquicos) porque su existencia amenaza a los dioses de muerte dado que ella comenzarà el culto de adoración a un dios de Amor y no a los dioses egoicos del Olimpo.
Por lo tanto estos deciden asesinar a la hija de Xena (que “casualmente” se llama Eva) pero a Xena se le concede un nuevo poder y es que puede eliminar a los dioses con arma llamada “chakram” siempre que lo haga por amor a su hija (chakra del corazón)...
Asì que llegamos al capìtulo final de la serie donde Hera, la arhienemiga de Hercules y Xena, decide ayudar mostrándole a èste donde se encuentra el arma que puede definitivamente acabar con los dioses ( y saben que es? Una costilla de “Saturno”!!!)
Asi es que todos los dioses son eliminados (incluido Zeus) y la humanidad queda liberada de estos y solo sobrevive uno de los dioses que por amor a Xena renuncia a su calidad de dios...y quien resulta ser? Nada mas ni nada menos que Ares (Marte).
Bueno sin con toda esta historia no les parece mas que interesante y profundo el mito de Xena como para ser incluido su nombre como planeta digno de ser analizado en la carta no se que lo sea....

Luego tenemos a los asteroides, que si tenemos en cuenta a Plutón que se encuentra mucho mas lejos que estos del sol (y de la tierra) y siendo no mucho mas pequeños que el (sobre todo Ceres) deberían de una vez por todas ser tomados en cuenta en las cartas.
Al menos Ceres, Juno, Pallas y Vesta (que llevan el nombre de nada mas ni nada menos que de cuatro de las seis diosas principales del panteón olímpico).Hablando de aspectos arquetípicos femeninos que no se ven usualmente al analizar los planetas “clásicos”.

Tambien tenemos que tomar en cuenta a Quirón que en sus ultimas observaciones se descubriò que es mas que un asteroide y mas que un pedazo de piedra flotando entre urano y saturno... es un mini planeta gaseoso!!

Y por ùltimo tenemos dos nuevos planetas del cinturón de Kuiper que se autodenominaron Santa (2003EL61) e Easterbunny o Conejo de Pascua (2005FY9).

Si tambien incluimos a Lilith y a Príapo nos quedan (al menos por ahora ) VEINTICUATRO planetas, es decir dos regentes por signos, algo que no me parece tan descabellado si tenemos en cuenta de que todos vibramos en diferentes niveles de conciencia y que tener dos regentes nos ayudarìa ver de forma mas precisa que del signo sintonizamos, el elevado o el elemental...

Con respecto a los otros cuerpos aùn sin denominación una teoría podría ser que aùn no quieren ser descubiertos como principio o símbolo síquico...
Se que todo esto puede sonar descabelladoo apresuarado pero de ahí el titulo de este mensaje “abramos las cabezas...”

Mi teoría con respecto a estos cuerpos es que probablemente tengamos que introducir cambios sustanciales en el orbe de los aspectos...(quizás achicarlos).
Otra posiblidad serìa analizar una carta natal de nuestro ego o personalidad y estudiar otra tomando estos planetas (que casi todos llevan nombres de dioses creadores o del inframundo) y ver el potencial espiritual y transpersonal en la misma.

Es imperativo entender que esta complejidad que se nos esta planteando se refleja en lo complejo de los cambios de paradigmas de hoy y la crisis en los valores, donde quizás lo que se nos este pidiendo sea ir “mas all de lo inmediato y conocido . Se nos sugiere tambien que si no nos apuramos en encontrar e investigar dentro y fuera nuestro sus significados podamos perder definitivamente el tren de la credibilidad como astrólogos y estaremos cayendo en flagrantes contradicciones con los postulados històricos de ,al menos la astrología occidental, que es la ùnica que incluye nuevos cuerpos en su análisis.

Y por ultimo el hecho de que se le estèn dando nombres de dioses de culturas diferentes a las greco-romanas tambien nos habla de dejar la visión eurocentrica del mundo y de la siquis, para globalizar nuestra visión interna y externa.
Recuerden que el descubrimiento de un nuevo planeta (o planetas como en este caso) siempre refleja un cambio y toma de conciencia en la siquis colectiva y en el mundo.

Como todos sabemos sucedió con Urano y las revoluciones, Neptuno y el movimiento espiritual y Plutón y el trabajo con el inconsciente y el manejo de nuestra destructividad personal y colectiva.

Tambien recuerden que hubo astrologos que se opusieron a incluirlos como nuevos planetas en las cartas...pero hoy casi doscientos años después de descubrir a Urano alguien concebirìa una carta sin el?

Bueno lo mismo van a pensar los astrólogos del futuro con respecto a estos nuevos cuerpos descubiertos.....

Se aceptan criticas y opiniones, no pretendo ser el dueño de la verdad solo es que en algun momento tenemos que abrir el debate...

yes the brain layers are known by me. But what does that actually have to do with Pluto? That all those myths were put onto this dwarf planet is a pure projection of astrology. Before, it might all have been put onto Mars. But the only closed system I know which eats itself up all the time is located on Earth. 35 billion animals are eaten by man every year. Why does one need to project all this to this dwarf planet? Just because it was named Pluto long time after the myths established? Or because it was discovered at the same time as that poison Plutonium was discovered?

There is a party game where people sit in a circle. One person whispers a story in the ear of the person to their right. Then that person whispers the story to the person to their right and this goes around the circle until it comes back to the beginning where you compare the original story to the final version. In each retelling of the story, elements get dropped and new elements get added. Usually the final version bears little resemblance to the original.

You ask: why would you find new American mythology, even as it expresses the same themes of human civilization as the multitudes of mythology preceding it, any less potent or valid?

In the same way the story of that party game with multiple retellings loses fine detail or a Xerox copy of an original document becomes more and more degraded with subsequent copies, the comic book recreation of Heracles loses the essential details of the story. In the comic book, the story gets told in short sentences suitable for a 5th grader that can fit in the little balloon over the hero’s head. It becomes over-simplified. The colors are reduced to 4 or 5. Superman has forgotten completely about the twelve labors of Heracles. His father is no longer Zeus but someone named Jorel with different characteristics. New elements without any connection to the archetype get added: Krypton, Daily Planet, Lois Lane, changing clothes in phone booths. None of this has any fidelity to the original story and the character of archetypal structures in the psyche. It is a degraded Xerox copy. It is drawn from the archetype but it is not the archetype itself.

That Pluto was only recently discovered in 1930 does not rule out the prior influence of Hades. It’s just that we became conscious of Pluto in 1930 but he has been there from the very beginning.

If you look at the structure of the human brain you will see 3 layers: the Basal brain, including the brain stem and cerebellum, the Paleomammalian brain also called the limbic system, and the neocortex or cerebrum. During evolution with it’s Plutonian mechanisms of survival of the fittest and the mutation and transformation of species, the brain has put on more matter and more advanced structures. The oldest part of the brain (brain stem and cerebellum) is also called the REPTILIAN brain. This most ancient part of the brain has not changed since the dinosaurs 200 million years ago.

It has been described as rigid, obsessive, compulsive, instinctive ritualistic, and paranoid. It is concerned with the fundamental necessities of survival and the fight - flight mechanism. It operates unconsciously not requiring the cognitive functions of the cerebrum to do it’s job. It is fully functional even when you sleep. It has been operational since even before mammals inherited the earth.

We realize the consistent themes between cultures of their various mythological archetypes, and I don't believe we invalidate them because one was created any earlier than another even when, from our hindsight point of view it becomes clear that some were even inspired by others. We accept them as any given culture's interpretation, segmentation and self expression of those elements of the human condition they deem relevant. In fact, each perhaps has a slightly different or augmented personality that typifies an element relating specifically to that culture.

Melanie Reinhart has this to say about planets conjunct the Ascendant: “Things materialize when they are conjunct an angle and the closer they are, the more likely that is so ... All 1st house planets want to be seen, but there is an added intensity, and a tendency to manifest literally when they are conjunct the Ascendant.

Glenn Close, Kurt Cobain, Michael Crichton, Leonardo DiCaprio, Peter Gabriel, Judy Garland, Martha Graham, Rutger Hauer, JFK Jr., k. d. lang, Modonna, Jack Nicholson, Al Pacino, Ross Perot, Christopher Reeve, Tim Robbins, Brooke Shields, Donald Trump, Orson Wells, Eldridge Cleaver, Sam Peckinpah, Robert Shaw, Charles “Tex” Watson, Henry VI of England, James Madison, Laurence Olivier, Robert McNamara, John Hinckley Jr., George W Bush, Al Gore
Mick Jagger, J Robert Oppenheimer, Sylvia Plath

Most of these people have found a way to honor Pluto and embody his archetype in highly productive ways and not be overwhelmed by him. A few of them have encountered intense trouble. I think of Sylvia Plath especially, but the poetry she wrote very eloquently acknowledged the dark side and was in fact it’s very strength. There are several powerful dark actors in this group that can scare the day lights out of you. And I think you will agree that none of them are superficial or inappropriately innocent with the possible exception of Christopher Reeve and JFK Jr.. I don’t know if it was the denial of Pluto and a blind insistence on innocence, but circumstances apparently beyond their control brought about very dark outcomes in their lives.

Regarding symbols and planets. Pluto sure is a reality in the solar system and thus is in balance to the whole planetary system, i.e. sun and all other planets, which is also in itself balanced out. To maintain such a balance it always implies a lot of energy - which is not seen of course. What we see is only some shift in energy when planets approach or depart. But actually the whole system is in spin and therefore keeps its momentum for some aeons to come.

By the way, astrology is no science. Astronomy is. The change in status of Pluto by mankind is a change of a symbol created by mankind (astrology pluto). Since nobody knows what the real Pluto is actually about. And that means it has an effect also on the symbol itself. It's implicit in the way that astrology symbols have been created. They are not fix at all. The signs of today compared to those from 5000 years ago have shifted about one sign
(which is corrected by astrology to be able to maintain the meaning).

And I did not at all say that Plutos meaning has changed or it does not exist any more. I simply stated that it is now not one of the 'main (astrological) driving forces' of mankind any more (sun, mercury, venus, EARTH, moon, mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune). My interpretion of the development is that the dark forces (in oneself) are conquerable at last in one's life. Or to say it the other way round - Plutos meaning and influence was overrated since its discovery.

I am deeply unsatisfied. It was not even close on our relationship and reminds me of a cold computer driven report with no substanial correlation.

My other purchase: Relationship Horoscope, by Liz Greene
was at least credible and helpful.

I don't get it, the same information was used for both.

Oh well,

I'll go shred it now.

A planet, star, or any other heavenly body can be assigned Right Ascension (RA) and Declination (Decl) against the backdrop of stars and from that RA and Decl you can point someone precisely to the object's location in the sky. The astrological chart is an accurate representation of the position of the planets from the point of view of the place of birth. You could, if you desired, represent this in 3 dimensions but you would only be adding the Decl data and the relative distance between the planets to the already accurate RA data. And you would not be as able to easily represent the chart on a 2 dimensional surface. The way we interpret the astrological chart does not take into consideration the relative distance between planets and Decl in usually considered a secondary influence. Neither much help you interpret a chart.

To me it is not misleading to talk about symbols. From the astronomical location (RA and Decl) of Pluto which is a literal reality, I place it in my chart. It is at 8 Leo 40 in the 10th house, conjuct my Moon and the North Node. But it is the symbolic and metaphorical meaning of Pluto and its relationship to the other elements of the chart that I consider when trying to understand the chart. You seem to imply that Pluto sends out some literal energy, measurable in the lab, which influences my Moon. As far as I know the only force between my Moon and Pluto is a very, very weak gravitational force and some possible but as yet unknown magnetic force. The literal physical forces appear very weak. But the symbolic interaction does not feel weak. In fact it is INTENSE. I don't see where E=MC^2 has any relevance here. That is an equation relating mass to its equivalent amount of energy.

The fact that one cannot rule out a correlation between the physical, literal planets and their astrological and symbolic meaning is not the way science works. In science the burden of proof is placed upon the one making the hypothesis. You hypothesize and then support it with evidence. If others can substantiate that your evidence supports your hypothesis you agree there is scientific proof. What was a theory ultimately becomes scientific fact. Nobody I know asserts that astrology is scientifically verifiable. If it were we would not get such bad press by the scientific community. We would make our case, verify it with evidence and the world would change. The only thing approaching this has been work done by Dr. Michel Gauquelin.

actually I think it's a bit misleading to talk about calculating a physical position correctly. One must add that the position is afterwards also transformed from a three-dimensional space position into the two-dimensional representation of the horoscope drawing which is related to the orbit plane and axis of earth.

The talk about symbols is in my opinion also a bit misleading. The symbols in this context are real moving objects in the sky that have got assigned meaning by man out of the things that happened when these bodies related in certain ways with each other (in the two dimensional representation!). This meaning differs between people. But the energies of the moving masses (bodies) are real if one takes Einsteins theorem E=mc^2 into account. Until today noone has proven whether the symbolic meanings constructed by astrology have anything in common with what those bodies are consistent of and whether the meaning read into it is more than pure chance, i.e. whether a real forecast can be made from the experience values. On the other hand those bodies do actually represent mass/energies and one can't rule out that these actually might exactly have the influence which is proposed by astrology.

Regarding Plutos role in the game I guess that events in the past several tenths of years have had an impact on mankind in such way that its ultimate role could now be downsized (speaking from an astrology viewpoint), i.e. it may not be one of the main energies that mankind is 'driven' by because negativity, obsession, dark powers and so on for what it stands in astrology may just be conquerable after all if life in itself is to be seen as a big transformation process.

have been appreciating your website from long time.
So it is disappointing to read What Astrodienst says about Pluto .
says Astrodienst .... In astrology, a planet is a symbol, not a physical object. The planet is interpreted as a symbol on a map. Only its position on the sky is calculated astronomically correct.

Sorry to note how the above seems confusing and misleading :

In astrology,a planet is a word. Every word is a symbol .
The planet's physical position calculated astronomically correct
(to call this fact only is really superficial) in a sky map
is interpreted using the symbolism of astrological language.

Trusting you find important for the public that uses your media
to receive an intelligent statement,
I thank you for your kind attention.

Best regards

Plutoday 2 Jung 2006
http://cyberterra.com/iau

Mercury and Saturn are conjunct. Saturn gives focus, discipline and maturity to Mercury. It slows him down from his normally flighty behavior and makes him very careful and consistent in his logic. Even more interesting is Saturn, planet of boundaries and limits, is applying (1 degree) to opposition with Neptune. Neptune, often vague, gets focused, grounded and more practical in aspect with Saturn. What was unclear before now becomes clear. The fog clears.

And while a slew of other Solar system bodies exist beyond Neptunian (including the Kuiper belt and beyond that the Oort cloud with it’s long-term comets), a boundary (Saturn) has been set with the new IAU definition, and Neptune becomes the limit and outermost planet of our system.

As the vote on Pluto’s status was held, Pluto was actually trine to Venus, Saturn, Mercury, and Sun with a square to Mars (his buddy) as the only difficult aspect. So the Plutonians seem to be in accord. The dominate opposition (Sat-Nep) has Pluto at the trine/sextile, supporting point and Jupiter in Scorpio point focus in a T-Cross, square to both ends of that opposition.

Boston (Reuters) Scientists still do not know what exactly dark matter is, but have theorized it must exist to account for the amount of gravity needed to hold the universe together.

They estimate that the substance accounts for 80 to 90 percent of the matter in the universe. The more familiar kind of matter, which can be seen and felt, makes up the rest.

Now researchers led by University of Arizona astronomer Doug Clowe say they have evidence to back up their theories.

Using orbiting telescopes, the researchers watched two giant gas clouds in outer space collide over a 100-hour period. As the clouds clashed, they said, the visible gas particles slowed, pulling away from the invisible dark matter particles.

The researchers said they could detect the dark matter particles by their gravitational pull on the surrounding visible particles.

This is the first time we've been able to show that (dark matter) has to be out there, that you can't explain it away, Clowe told Reuters. We haven't actually been able to see the dark matter particles themselves, but what we have been able to do is ... image the gravity that they're generating.

The research team also included scientists at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and used telescopes operated by NASA.

Xena is not an archetype nor is Jorel, or Hulk. Archetypes are ancient like the planetary bodies. One definition of archetype is “an original model or type after which other similar things are patterned a prototype.” Jorel would be patterned after the original model, perhaps Heracles but he’s not the model, he’s the copy.

-)

It would seem that Ceres, the first and still the largest asteroid at ~600 mi diameter, would have more effect on earthlings than smaller and more distant Chiron, yet reputable astrologers have written extensively on the effects of Chiron. Liz Greene esp in The Dark of the Soul, pub 2003 and Melanie Reinhart has an entire book: Chiron and the Healing Journey. This is curious and makes me question.

It turns out that 2003 UB313, though more distant than Pluto, is actually ~70 miles greater in diameter. To be consistent, astronomers will either have to demote Pluto as a planet or add 2003 UB313 and possibly some of the other recently discovered KBOs.

My moon is definately not in Cancer. It's in Leo. I'm not sure if the decrepancy is due to you not using the Tropical system or ? I was an astrolger back in the 70's and never did a chart or had one done that indicated I had my Moon in Cancer. Why do you think your site shows this?

- Make an online/downloadable version available. I was put off by having to wait for the horoscope to arrive in a book form. People like me are impatient and either want the info NOW, or they don't want it at all. By the time it arrives, I will have figured out the stuff myself.

- Make sure some more important transits in the forecast are at least listed (like here are other transits that would be included in your extended forecast!). For instance on my free forecast page it lists transits such as saturn opposition mercury but a transit that everyone would definitely want to read and know about, and the one that I am having right now is - Jupiter trine Sun. That transit is not even mentioned in my forecast, and if was not into astrology myself, I wouldn't even know to look for it not to mention that it makes me wonder if it would be skipped in the full report if I ordered it...

- It seems that forecasts are just carbon copies of whatever is in Robert Hand's book - plain vanilla type, nothing personal or in depth. Every transit is not the same, and a good astrologer will take into account many transits at the same time to figure out the demands of those transits , or their opportunities. This requires a more in depth look - like if there are more transits involving Pluto and Saturn, then there are those involving Jupiter or Venus and if there are more squares then trines and so on... then one could get an idea about what is the theme for that period of time. That's the type of forecast I'd like to read about.

I've been ordering Llz Greene's yearly horoscopes for a number of years now, and in the last couple have been worried somewhat by what she had to say about transiting Neptune conjunct my natal Sun: a sad loss or sacrifice of some kind (quotation), and you may find that you defeat your own ends, and must make sacrifices not of your choosing (quotation). The transit had been within orb since the beginning of April 2004 and will finish at the end of January 2007, and as of a week ago I really couldn't see that it was having any effect at all, other than career problems (in my chart Sun=Moon=Saturn/MC). Well, they've been really nasty career problems, and I was so hoping to make it through this transit with nothing worse than that happening, but no such luck. With only a few months left of the transit, as it retrograded back towards my Sun again, I finally found out what the transit was going to mean for me.

Well, Liz hit the nail on the head yet again, unfortunately for me. Trying to distract myself from what's happened, I picked up one of her books which I've read many times before, The Horoscope in Manifestation. I thought I picked up this particular book at random, and I thought I opened it to a particular page at random. But there on the page were these words, in the context of a discussion about transits of Neptune to the natal Sun:

Very often, powerful hard transits to the Sun precipitate a recognition of who we are through discovering who we are not. We become conscious by recognising our unconsciousness. We are denied something, and we only realise what we value and want by recognising that what we have is what we DON'T want. Through loss or suffering or sacrifice, a realisation dawns of what we are actually made of. It is often how Neptune works. We only discover what we care about most deeply through losing it ...

If you only knew how incredibly accurate these words are. It's just amazing. And now, looking back at my chart with all this in mind, and the rest of the discussion in the book about transiting Neptune to the natal Sun, I realise that there's nothing I could have done to prevent what happened. I've been tortured wondering if I had done this or hadn't done that, if I could have prevented what happened. But now I know that it was always going to happen, and I was just blissfully ignorant of that fact. Just as well, I suppose. But I do feel better knowing that nothing I could have done would have made for a different outcome.

Sedna is actually beyond the Kupier belt in the near Oort cloud with perihelion of 76 astronomical units. (AU)

Quaoar (2002 LM60) the size of Charon is at 42 AU

Orcus (2004 DW) is 45 AU

Recently 2003-UB313 (as yet un-named by the IAU) has been discovered and is the largest KBO yet discovered (larger than Pluto) but its distance is greater than Sedna (42 AU).